00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:13 Speaker 1 Strategy& Insider. Exploring future trends and their impacts. 00:00:14:15 - 00:00:57:04 Speaker 2 Welcome to a new episode of the Strategy and Insider Podcast. I'm Thomas, your host and a partner at strategy, and today I'm joined by two exceptional guests from one of the world's leading medical universities and a pioneering startup. Together, they are making strides in reducing both the cost and the controversy surrounding stem cell production. We're currently in their office in Stockholm, Sweden, near the very famous Karolinska Institute and the Karolinska University Hospital, and I, yeah, just had the privilege of touring their local production facility prior to this recording, which was really incredibly insightful. 00:00:57:06 - 00:01:11:24 Speaker 2 So first, thanks for having me. Seeing the production facility, but also a very warm welcome. Prof. Dr. Katarina Le Blanc, and Dr. Mattias Bernow. I'm really thrilled to explore the world of stem cell research with you today. 00:01:12:02 - 00:01:12:22 Speaker 3 Thank you. 00:01:12:24 - 00:01:16:22 Speaker 4 Thank you very much. Thank you for being here and inviting us to your podcast. 00:01:16:24 - 00:01:44:14 Speaker 2 Katerina is one of the world's leading experts in the field of stem cell research, dedicating over 20 years to this groundbreaking area of study. Her primary research is on mesenchymal stromal cells, shortly abbreviated also as MSCs, which are derived from adult bone marrow and have the advantage of being undifferentiated, meaning that they can develop into multiple different cell types. 00:01:44:16 - 00:02:13:12 Speaker 2 She is a professor of clinical stem cell research at the renowned Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, and has an impressive portfolio of more than 200 peer reviewed publications and review articles. She also serves on various prestigious committees, including the Pontifical Academy for life in the Vatican, the Accademia Europea, the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, and even the Nobel Assembly at the Karolinska Institute. 00:02:13:14 - 00:02:49:02 Speaker 2 Additionally, Caterina has received numerous accolades for young female researchers and her outstanding work on the immunological properties and therapeutic applications on MSCs. In 2021, Caterina made a significant impact by donating her extensive research from over two decades to establish cell collapse, which is a biotechnology company focused on producing high quality stem cells on an industrial scale. Aiming to make these innovative treatments more affordable in the end. 00:02:49:04 - 00:03:16:12 Speaker 2 And this brings me to my second guest today, which is Mattias ORF, who is the CEO of Cell Collapse. He is an MD from Karolinska and a master of science from the Stockholm School of Economics. Additionally, he has worked both as an ER physician at Karolinska University Hospital and as a management consultant before launching his first company in the dishy physical health sector called Doctrine. 00:03:16:14 - 00:03:40:23 Speaker 2 So Mattias brings a unique blend of medical expertise and business acumen to the table, which seems to me to really be a perfect fit. With Katarina as background and expertise for the success of Cell Collapse. So Katarina and Matthias, it's really a genuine pleasure to have you both with us today. Thank you for welcoming me and my team to your Stockholm office. 00:03:41:00 - 00:03:46:14 Speaker 2 I'm really appreciating you. Take the time to sit down with us here today. Thank you. Thank you. 00:03:46:14 - 00:03:48:12 Speaker 4 Thomas, and welcome to Stockholm. 00:03:48:18 - 00:04:18:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. So it's actually treating us very nicely outside. Yes. It's a little cold. Yes, there is a bit of snow, but it's super sunny. Yeah. So, perfect day to get this recorded. Actually. So, Katarina, you have more than an impressive track record in stem cell research, as I was alluding to before. When you think back how you got into this field, what was kind of the the spark that set your scientific passion on fire for this very specific research area? 00:04:18:17 - 00:04:27:07 Speaker 2 And since you started that quite some years back, what have been the biggest advancements that you've seen during your time in stem cell research? 00:04:27:09 - 00:05:10:04 Speaker 3 Well, I think it was a lot was just serendipity and chance. And what I was really looking for as a young hematologist in training was the research area that would be a little bit small and unique, with little competition as a good venue to explore. And little did I know that the field would explode within a few years of my starting the research and looking back, I think I would, I would not have expected was the fact that I experienced bringing in a new field, understanding how that field works, the cells. 00:05:10:10 - 00:05:33:01 Speaker 3 We applied the cells to patients over two decades. It took to figure out what the cells actually do in the patient, what the mode of action is, and then see all the research translated into a clinical therapy that is now approved by regulatory agents in both the United States and in China and Japan. 00:05:33:03 - 00:05:40:23 Speaker 2 And would you have expected that 20 years back? I mean, you said you didn't know and you didn't kind of plan for this field positively to explode, right? 00:05:41:01 - 00:05:59:14 Speaker 3 I don't think it's possible to have that as a goal. You go in and you do your little things day by day, and then at the end, looking back, what you achieved is a nice story. But while you were there in the middle of it, you were just there to answer the daily questions. 00:05:59:16 - 00:06:03:12 Speaker 2 And it's loaded with also, yeah, frustration. Sometimes I can. 00:06:03:15 - 00:06:04:14 Speaker 3 Absolutely. 00:06:04:16 - 00:06:07:09 Speaker 2 It's happening. Not the way you planned it. Right. 00:06:07:09 - 00:06:12:19 Speaker 3 So not the way you planned it at all, but also the good things were not really planned. 00:06:12:23 - 00:06:18:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. So in hindsight there is a good story. But when writing the story it's not always easy. Yeah. 00:06:18:21 - 00:06:25:19 Speaker 3 So it's not always easy. And and you don't see the forest for the trees. You're just busy with the little questions. 00:06:25:20 - 00:06:49:02 Speaker 2 So Matthias, I can actually very much relate to your story, as we both come from a similar background, studying medicine, then turning towards consulting. So naturally, I'm also intrigued. What in your case, prompted you to begin your career in consulting after earning your M.D. and what motivated your transition back into medicine in the end? 00:06:49:04 - 00:07:13:02 Speaker 4 Well, a very broad and general interest in doing good and making things better. I started out as a business student. I found that fantastic deals in 2001. At that time, everybody was going to London to become bankers. I come from a family of, of, doctors, from, down in the southern part of Sweden. And I didn't foresee my future as a banker. 00:07:13:02 - 00:07:33:21 Speaker 4 So I started at Karolinska instead. From day one. I loved the university and, becoming a doctor, though I had very much in common with the fairly extrovert business students, and they were very entrepreneurial. So I kept, hanging out with them while studying at Karolinska in some kind of manic episode. I ended up with doubles. Degrees. 00:07:33:21 - 00:08:00:10 Speaker 4 That was never my intention, but it's been a stroke of luck from in in in life, I've been able to move in between those two worlds. I spent seven years as a clinical physician, as you mentioned, in the ER at Karolinska in and family medicine, around Sweden and Norway. I spent my time as a management consultant with Boston Consulting Group before, kind of finally finding my way home as an entrepreneur, building one of the finest companies within physical health in in Sweden. 00:08:00:10 - 00:08:07:07 Speaker 4 Doctrine. Before I was recruited to become the CEO of South Clubs. So, a stroke of luck, I would say. 00:08:07:09 - 00:08:30:21 Speaker 2 That's actually a good leader, because I'm. I'm wondering how the two of you, met, actually. And can you probably share a bit of the story around why this match happened then? And, you ended up being the CEO of Cell Collapse, and you are kind of donating all your protocols and the experience into cell collapse. Probably if you can take us a bit part into into that journey. 00:08:31:02 - 00:08:57:07 Speaker 3 So what we were doing in the research group was doing academic clinical trials, and funding is always limited. So we were limited to doing small trials and we did one after the other. But once we had completed a trial, we need to do a small clinical trial in another area because we could never expand the research beyond the early trials. 00:08:57:09 - 00:09:37:22 Speaker 3 And really what happened with the pandemic. We did a clinical study in, Covid Ards, the inflammatory pulmonary complications of Covid, and in the trial we were supposed to have, I think, 11 patients. And what ended up being was that we only had cells enough for nine patients. So we couldn't even complete that small trial. And I think that was the turning point for me when I decided that we need we need help in advancing for later stage trials and getting the treatment out for patients. 00:09:37:24 - 00:09:39:20 Speaker 3 And that's when I met Matthias. 00:09:39:23 - 00:10:09:00 Speaker 4 Yeah. And the connect between us was actually the, the Mr. behind cell clubs who, knew Katrina since before and realizing the, huge opportunity in the world not having Kateryna cells being registered as a product yet, but seeing the enormous amount of research going on worldwide on on the same stem cells there were hundreds of there are still hundreds of ongoing trials with different indications confirming again and again a very beneficial safety profile. 00:10:09:02 - 00:10:30:17 Speaker 4 And then also, showing the effects of the cells, which we can come back to. So they were understood that there's a huge potential. The frustration from Katarina of not even though, you're one of the world leading experts and most well renowned professors of, clinical stem cell research and missing from the stem cells in specific when even you could get enough cells for your trials. 00:10:30:22 - 00:10:51:24 Speaker 4 That was a problem. And a problem. That is something that entrepreneurs love. Because then there is something to solve and build, a company around. And, then I was recruited and on my part, I came from having done a couple of years, or five years by then. And as an entrepreneur with my double background. And when I heard about this, it sounded too good to be true. 00:10:51:24 - 00:11:13:06 Speaker 4 So I needed to make a deep dive and understand what are some kind of stem cells, how do they work? What is the the market potential? And I was just blown back. It was an amazing thing. So I needed to go home. I was five years into my my entrepreneurial journey with, with my first, co-founded startup, asking my wife was pregnant with her second child at the time. 00:11:13:08 - 00:11:31:07 Speaker 4 Dear, I, I know that I've done a startup journey for five years. It's been a lot of blood, sweat and tears. But now there's something that is just amazing. But there are some problems, and we need to solve them because this may be a big changer for health care and, health around the world. And of course, she said yes. 00:11:31:09 - 00:11:53:08 Speaker 4 And, you know. Yeah, very luckily. Now we're here, three years later, our son Oscar was born three weeks after I started as CEO, his plus two standard deviations in terms of length and weight. So it's a very big guy. And and I think Cell Clubs has been growing even faster than Oscar. It's, it's been, three amazing and crazy years. 00:11:53:08 - 00:12:15:24 Speaker 2 And is it then also kind of that, that experience, Katarina, that you made during that Covid time when you were lagging kind of stem cell material to really apply to patients that by and large, your mission of cell collapse is done to increase, availability of those stem cells and also do that and, at a bigger scale and lower costs. 00:12:15:24 - 00:12:22:21 Speaker 2 Would that be kind of in simple terms? What what the cell collapse is striving for, or how would you codify your, your mission? 00:12:22:23 - 00:12:44:23 Speaker 3 So what I did when I understood our limitation and was really frustrated by the limitation and the founders of Cell Collapse approached me, is I actually donated all my protocols and all the research that I had done. For the benefit of of being able to reach out to more patients. 00:12:45:00 - 00:13:05:23 Speaker 4 That was a fantastic starting point of cell clubs and our unfair advantage in the world, because, yes, we're, by now three and a half year old startup. But the startup built on 25 years of research, kept me out of the one of the finest research institutions in the world by one of the most well renowned professors. So based on Catherine, that's research. 00:13:05:23 - 00:13:29:16 Speaker 4 The goal of cell clubs is to truly democratize the access to mesenchymal stem cells, knowing what they can do in their potential. The problem, though, as Catherine is describing, there is a lack of cells. They're extremely expensive. And then, of course, there's also a challenge with, a lot of the regulatory frameworks, which hinders the, research to advance from phase 2 to 3 and a registry product. 00:13:29:16 - 00:13:58:24 Speaker 4 Yeah. So there are roughly ten approved products around the world, but they could be maybe 50 or 100. And that is why we exist. That is why why Catarina, donated her research, and it's to accelerate research. And our contribution to that is supplying the highest quality cells, being one of the most research protocols in the world by, by professional law and also making them, not only available but affordable, because that is also, I mean, financing of research is a big thing. 00:13:58:24 - 00:14:30:10 Speaker 2 Absolutely it is. And I mean, now coming from that inflection point, also for you personally from that study, right, three and a half years, fast forward, and I had that pleasure of walking through the cell collapse production site. You actually produce in 1500 doses of stem cells per year. With the support from doesn't young, healthy bone marrow, donors that I learned should be around the age 18 to 25. 00:14:30:11 - 00:14:48:22 Speaker 2 So me not qualifying for it any more. But could you explain to us a bit what is the basic concept of those mesenchymal stem cells and their advantages, and also what are most promising applications in patient treatment already today, but also to come. 00:14:48:24 - 00:15:23:20 Speaker 3 So in the field we actually don't call them stem cells. The acronym MSE was initially describing stem cells. But we know today that the cells role in the body is to direct tissue to a healing situation, but they're not actually replacing lost tissue by themselves. They're just sort of orchestrating healing. And that is why the acronym is usually today referred to as mesenchymal stromal cells. 00:15:23:22 - 00:15:28:00 Speaker 3 The concept of stem cells is is complicated. 00:15:28:02 - 00:15:46:05 Speaker 4 There is a discussion on, on renaming them again to medicinal signaling in cells. So emesis is is a right acronym and the easiest way to talk about it. But as professor of law says, in orchestrating the healing functions, as described, medicinal single cells is on the table right now. 00:15:46:05 - 00:16:11:19 Speaker 3 It's probably the best, best description of what the cells do in vitro or in vivo as far as application, clinical applications to work. If we look in the world where EMRs have been, approved, we have transplant complications for what we call graft versus host disease or GvHD. And that's been approved now in China. And the United States. 00:16:11:19 - 00:16:47:24 Speaker 3 But it's also several for the last 7 or 8 years been approved in Japan and also in Canada and New Zealand. Besides that, there is a large interest today in the prevention not just treating disease, but preventing disease. And there are promising results in, cardiovascular disease area, for example, preventing stroke and, myocardial infarction, heart infarction, and also testing in improving and treating Alzheimer's for a disease. 00:16:48:01 - 00:17:17:04 Speaker 4 If you ask me, there are there's a long list of super interesting indications. And sitting here with Professor Loblaw, the number one would be crushers and hostesses. Where, which is, how Catherine and your peers, broke the seal open for EMRs published in long since 2004 and then again to 2008. They're showing that, those who suffer from PhD and don't respond to cortisone, at least 50% of them could be saved, using the single was done. 00:17:17:04 - 00:17:43:21 Speaker 4 So said from from dying. That is now in a registered indication in several countries around the world. Then, one of my personal favorites is cardiovascular disease, where the cells have shown, amazing benefits. I often quote one of my favorite trials, which was actually on heart failure. So in that trial, big phase three trial, conducted in the US, they inject themselves into the heart muscle, hoping for the heart to move better. 00:17:43:23 - 00:18:04:08 Speaker 4 And it didn't. So in that term, it was kind of a failed trial. But as a secondary outcome, they measured their risk and the incidence of heart infarction and stroke and heart, the incidence of heart infarction, it decreased by more than 50%, up to 63%. And for those of you who are not a medically trained, that's a crazy number. 00:18:04:12 - 00:18:25:08 Speaker 4 When I met the person in the E.R. who has just, suffered the first heart infarction or I have a cardiac disease, I give that person five medications, starting speed up location and three more. And for each, each medicine that that I give that person that they need to take between 1 or 2 times per day. I hope that the risk decreases for heart infarction by 5 to 10%. 00:18:25:10 - 00:18:47:07 Speaker 4 This was a one time injection with one dose of bone marrow drive in single stem cells that were two and a half years decrease the risk of heart infarction by more than 50%. What is even more amazing or strange? But when you know why, it's just fantastic. In that same group, the risk of stroke also decreased more by more than 50%. 00:18:47:09 - 00:19:07:07 Speaker 4 And that goes back to what we talked about earlier, how the cells working with professional blood said the cells when injected into the heart muscle in this drug they don't and graft and become, heart muscle cells. They don't transmit DNA or anything else. So what they do, they listen to the signals in the body, either in the bloodstream or in the extracellular vascular, fluid. 00:19:07:09 - 00:19:25:19 Speaker 4 And then they respond to those signals sending out small messengers. And that is also how they can pass the blood brain barrier, for example. So at the end of the day, they could probably have been given I.V. instead of injected into the heart muscle. So that was just a very cumbersome way of delivery. So cardiovascular. This is a big, big area of interest. 00:19:26:00 - 00:19:51:14 Speaker 4 Musculoskeletal disease. There's a lot of research not only on bone marrow, but other origins of the central stem cells as well, where the cells have shown to decrease pain and in some cases, even heal, or a regrowth of, of, cartilage, which is super difficult. And normally then, you have all the inflammatory diseases, whether it is, skin diseases or if it's, bowel diseases. 00:19:51:16 - 00:20:22:06 Speaker 4 Super interesting research going on, on neurodegenerative diseases still very early, once again confirming the safety profile. And then there is, a long list of, of following diseases. And also at the end of that long, list, there's a huge interest from the longevity scene and people who want to work preventatively. 00:20:22:08 - 00:20:48:07 Speaker 2 Probably coming back to there is a long list, an even longer list of potential positive applications. MSE could be. Yeah. On the list for all the main consideration still. And I've seen the production facility, a lot of people with, very cost intense machines with cost intense, materials that you need for it. Right. They are still costly. 00:20:48:07 - 00:21:13:01 Speaker 2 And also that must to face also some supply and quality challenges. Cell collapse does claim to reduce the costs by up to 90% actually, which would be great. Well, at the same time also happening the, the the large scale production. Can you share a little how do you plan to operationalize that? How do you get kind of the positive cost effects and at the same time scale. 00:21:13:01 - 00:21:56:02 Speaker 4 Up absolute in the rocket science or in this case, stem cell science has already been done by, Katrina and, your group over the past 25 years manufacturing stem cells, EMRs, medicine, single cells is, in one way, it's extremely complicated. And every step of the production process from selecting the optimal donor, extracting the cells, reducing the right technique, transporting them in the right way to to our clean room facility, extracting the, cells from the bone marrow tissue of of origin, and then farming the cells, making them grow in a nice way so that they, preserve their potency every time they divide. 00:21:56:04 - 00:22:21:13 Speaker 4 And then, at the end of the day, try preserving them. So freezing them down, to -100 and, 50 degrees or below, which then makes them an off the shelf product. And then from there you need to transport them to the patient in need or the child, wherever it may be around the world. Then you need to thaw them, wash them, check them for sterility and viability, make sure they're as happy as they were when they were extracted, and then inject them in the right way in the patient. 00:22:21:13 - 00:22:40:23 Speaker 4 So it's a super complex process. At the end of the day, the rules of, economies of scale, they apply on us as well. So if you do something and you become an expert in every little part, in every detail, you make sure that you keep the quality. You can make it bigger, faster and at a lower cost. 00:22:41:00 - 00:23:03:14 Speaker 4 And that is the game that we play every day. How to maintain at the highest quality level in the world will be getting a bigger output at a smaller or lower cost, and we have in our, our own big R&D team. And, we're very happy to, share professional and also research, so we can build on that. 00:23:03:16 - 00:23:31:08 Speaker 4 So the first step was, of course, doing the tech transfer of what Catherine was already doing and the Karolinska University was already doing. We did that. We scale it up by more than 100 times. We validate the process. We apply it to the Swedish Medical Products Agency at the Swedish FDA equivalent, for an approval. And they approved both, using the, the, bone marrow tissue and, and producing the cells, according to GMP, according to Catherine has protocols. 00:23:31:10 - 00:23:56:16 Speaker 4 And by doing only that, I think we cut prices by more than 50%. So that was our, get go. Really? And now our aim is from that 50% price reduction to slash prices, another 8,090% over the next decade, working on the next production techniques, always staying true to our, academic, origin and making sure that we get everything right. 00:23:56:16 - 00:23:59:20 Speaker 4 Never compromise on quality, while we scale up. 00:23:59:24 - 00:24:31:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, and I've seen it now. Right. Also, the the lab manager was talking about, everybody who is working in the production is always thinking how can we improve each individual step? How can we, smoothen the process? How can we speed up the process? How can we take out risk in the production facility? So, that's that's probably kind of the, the heart of innovation and also bring down costs while scaling at the same time, probably Katrina, another area to dive into is a bit of ethics, right? 00:24:32:00 - 00:24:57:21 Speaker 2 Because stem cell research obviously is as regulated and rigorously regulated as chemical trucks and others. Which is obviously super crucial for patients and participants and their safety. While the stringent regulation can make the process obviously longer and more cost intensive, it is part of the special responsibility when being active in a crucial area, as we are in in health care. 00:24:57:23 - 00:25:09:21 Speaker 2 So could you discuss, Draghi, the potential also ethical considerations that are associated with it with stem cell research and how the industry, by and large is addressing this. 00:25:09:23 - 00:25:18:18 Speaker 3 So some stem cells like in brain or stem cells are controversial because they can they're made from fetal tissue. 00:25:18:20 - 00:25:19:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:25:19:14 - 00:25:43:15 Speaker 3 And also other types of stem cells like the IPS cells are controversial in the sense that they're genetically modified cells. And Missy's not necessarily be in stem cells at all. But it doesn't matter whether they fulfill the criteria of stem cell. The only thing that's really relevant is what they can do in the patient and what they can achieve. 00:25:43:17 - 00:26:12:06 Speaker 3 But they're harvested from healthy volunteers. So the donor will actually want to donate cells. So there's no controversy there. And second, we're not genetically manipulating the cells. So they're natural cells. And I think that's one of the reasons behind the extreme safety profile that we have, with nearly no side effects to the treatment. It's very safe. And that makes sense. 00:26:12:06 - 00:26:16:13 Speaker 3 Misses unconscious crucial compared to other types of cells. 00:26:16:18 - 00:26:23:23 Speaker 2 And where do you find those healthy, rather young volunteers, that want to donate their bone? 00:26:24:00 - 00:26:28:19 Speaker 3 That's a question for Matthias. But the important thing is they're not so hard to find. 00:26:28:23 - 00:26:31:18 Speaker 2 That's interesting. Matthias, where do you find it, then? 00:26:31:20 - 00:26:53:18 Speaker 4 Well, just like you can find, donors, for, blood for health care. There are a long line of voluntary donors for a bone marrow, for a pharmaceutical production. And, which is what we do. But as you know, there's also a long line of donors for much, much more bone marrow for for people who are in need of bone marrow transplant, which is a separate thing from what we do. 00:26:53:20 - 00:27:21:14 Speaker 4 In comparison, we take, 5% of what is needed if you do a bone marrow transplant. So we take a very small amount, it's done under local anesthesia. So. So it doesn't hurt what it does take. It takes quite a lot of time because you need to undergo an immense screening to be selected, making sure that you're in full health, that are no, known or as far as possible, no unknown unknowns, either. 00:27:21:16 - 00:27:29:14 Speaker 2 Also learned, by the way, that you must not have visited selected countries before getting that donation. Right. It's a it's a very high rate. 00:27:29:14 - 00:27:59:05 Speaker 4 The third is we're regulated by the Swedish national or by the European Tissue Directive, by the International Society for Stem Cell Therapy and of course, by the on protocols. So it's, well, if you pass to become a donor, you were, truly fortunate. There's a saying that, health is a new wealth. And our donors, they're very wealthy. 00:27:59:07 - 00:28:21:09 Speaker 2 And, Katarina, you you have the pleasure of having worked in this field for, give or take, 25 years, right? You've seen it starting. You've seen it growing. You know where it is, by heart. Now, when do you think, MSCI kind of will be seeing that prime time being used at a very large scale? For diseases. 00:28:21:09 - 00:28:26:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, but also for preventing diseases at some point. What would be your best kind of guess? 00:28:26:09 - 00:28:52:10 Speaker 3 You always look forward. So we know some about treatment. We know very little about prevention. Preventative trials are more difficult to achieve. They take longer before you have results. It costs more money to do a trial in prevention. But I would put my money on the prevention side. I think that's where the big, big benefit will be super interesting. 00:28:52:10 - 00:29:14:24 Speaker 2 And regulation, I mean, some countries do allow already more freely to use it, others are more hesitant to do it. I mean, how can regulation keep up with it? Because they also need to understand the science behind the possibility, things that come with it and and obviously regulate for it at the same time, but also allow for innovation and allow for patient benefits. 00:29:14:24 - 00:29:16:11 Speaker 2 How how do you see this? 00:29:16:11 - 00:29:35:22 Speaker 3 I think it's been an experience for, also the regulatory bodies. And during these 25 years, they've learned about the cells and the science. And I think today they're up to date on knowledge. But it's been a learning curve with them alongside the development field. 00:29:36:00 - 00:29:44:23 Speaker 4 And I would say that the relative authorities, they're up to date on knowing what it is. But then it's a very slow process to change the rhetoric, the regulatory frameworks. 00:29:45:00 - 00:29:54:02 Speaker 2 When do you think this is also coming to Europe then? Or is there too many hurdles? Is it too expensive? Is it why not Europe yet? 00:29:54:06 - 00:30:20:05 Speaker 4 Well we're here as as well. We're already in Europe where supplying to, European one of the finest, university hospitals. That's a great story by the way. We're now supplying to phase one trial for them, but they initially, approached us, on a phase three trial, where they came into the exact same situation as, Katarina, where they did the phase one and phase two trial, and then they ran out of cells, because the university hospital labs, they're amazing. 00:30:20:07 - 00:30:39:24 Speaker 4 They can produce the cells, but then they also produce a lot of other stuff for for individual patients. They cannot scale, and do, do thousands of treatments. So. So we're working now on, on, together with that national FDA in that country to be the supplier of the phase three trial, even though we didn't pay for the phase one, the Chip trial. 00:30:39:24 - 00:31:00:03 Speaker 4 And that's looking very positive right now. So clubs, ourselves, we had our first approved trial in, in Sweden just a few weeks ago, and which will be, blood sampling trial following our people who have done stem cell treatments around the world, whether it is cells produced by us or by others. So we're very proud of that trial in Sweden that we're setting up right now. 00:31:00:05 - 00:31:02:03 Speaker 4 So we're doing a research here as well. 00:31:02:05 - 00:31:14:13 Speaker 2 But that's great to hear that. It's really kind of at a global level. Yeah. That everything you do on your own, but you're collaborating a lot with other biotech medtech companies and so on and so forth. 00:31:14:15 - 00:31:27:01 Speaker 3 Yeah. I think what we tried to do is further the knowledge and the science. So doing this within clinical trials that will constantly teach is key is very important. 00:31:27:03 - 00:31:52:17 Speaker 2 And follow the signs is probably also a good keyword, for me, because I was mentioning at the very beginning, Katarina, that you have the extra ordinary honor to serve also on the noble Assembly at the Karolinska Institute. Probably jumping into the future of the Nobel Prize award celebrations the year 20, 30, 32, whatever. 5 to 7 years from now in health care, by and large. 00:31:52:17 - 00:32:03:03 Speaker 2 What do you think could qualify for Nobel Prize winning? So what will we have seen as as advances in, in medicine and health care? 00:32:03:05 - 00:32:04:01 Speaker 3 I think a crystal. 00:32:04:01 - 00:32:04:17 Speaker 2 Ball question. 00:32:04:17 - 00:32:38:20 Speaker 3 Myself. I would like to see medicine advancing in the field of prevention. There is so much effort in treating disease, and so much of the health care budget goes into treating already existing diseases. And there's very little under UN, prevention. And I think promoting, as here said, longevity and healthy life, not just being alive but really quality healthy life is is our new big task for the future. 00:32:38:24 - 00:32:59:20 Speaker 4 And I would say looking at the major trends around the world and not being part of the neoplasms. So I have no idea what they talk about and what they work on. But what is often ignored is the basic research behind the big breakthroughs. So the godfather of EMRs, Nick Kaplan, who died sadly, last year. 00:32:59:20 - 00:33:26:11 Speaker 4 So there. But his disciples, there are a handful of them around the world that has really developed, the field of, of EMRs and, given what I believe, about their potential for, medicine, health care, and, general health, I would guess it's it's, an interesting field to, to bet on. The question is, when will we get there? 00:33:26:13 - 00:33:33:04 Speaker 4 So there are a handful of people that would be possible to get or share such a price. I'm looking at one of them. 00:33:33:06 - 00:33:56:10 Speaker 2 So it really I mean, the only thing that I can say at the end of it, big thanks, big thanks for a very rich conversation about the science behind CS. And what really stands out for me is that it's, in the end, the orchestrator of healing. It's not the healing itself, but it's the one that kind of builds the ecosystem in the body to get the healing. 00:33:56:12 - 00:34:14:19 Speaker 2 Also, thanks for the great mission that you have at Cell collapse from a societal perspective, but also sharing it here so openly with us, with me. And also thanks for not just talking, but letting us see it. And being part of your production facility today and, yeah, I can only wish you all the very best for the years to come. 00:34:14:19 - 00:34:18:09 Speaker 2 And again, thanks for hosting us here. In the cold today. 00:34:18:12 - 00:34:19:23 Speaker 3 Our pleasure, our pleasure. 00:34:19:23 - 00:34:22:15 Speaker 4 Thank you for coming here. And thank you. 00:34:22:17 - 00:34:42:02 Speaker 2 So thanks, everybody, for tuning in to today's strategy and inside the podcast. Please don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Please do also tune in next time, which I'm sure will be equally exciting. But until then, stay safe and see you soon! 00:34:42:04 - 00:34:50:08 Speaker 1 Strategy and strategy made real.